Oct. 16, 2025
Family Dynamics: Golden Child vs. Scapegoat
We unpack the family roles we never asked for and why Gen X kids grew up in what was essentially a live-in social experiment, exploring how birth order impacts everything from our place in the family to our adult relationships.
• Birth order significantly impacts family dynamics, with oldest children "paving the way" and younger siblings often enjoying more relaxed rules
• Age gaps between siblings create entirely different childhood experiences—larger gaps can make siblings feel like they grew up in different families
• Family connections often strengthen in middle age as we realize time with parents is limited
• The golden child versus scapegoat dynamic can persist into adulthood, causing lasting pain even in our 40s
• Parenting styles have evolved from physical punishment to privilege removal and positive reinforcement
• 90s cultural touchpoints like Boyz II Men, Achy Breaky Heart, and Super Nintendo created rare moments of connection between siblings
Whether you're the rule follower or the rebel, we're here to say you're absolutely right to be mad about that thing from 1993. Keep watching, because there's plenty more dysfunction where that came from!
Thanks for hanging out with us on Brother Sister Whatever, your no-BS guide through the messy middle!
If this episode made you laugh, cringe, or question your entire existence as a GenX/Xennial — please hit subscribe and leave a review. It genuinely helps more unhinged humans find their people.
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Bring your feelings. We’ll bring ours.
00:00 - The Family Roles We Never Asked For
02:15 - 90s Debate: Birth Order and Sibling Dynamics
08:10 - This or That: Sibling Edition
15:05 - Dear Siblings: Fighting the Golden Child Curse
21:50 - Why Are We Like This: Parenting Styles Then and Now
27:15 - Pop Culture Rewind: 1995
WEBVTT
00:00:01.002 --> 00:00:05.713
You ever notice your sibling getting praised for the exact thing that you got in trouble for?
00:00:06.660 --> 00:00:09.589
Yeah, and somehow you were the one who needs to let it go.
00:00:10.279 --> 00:00:21.373
Today we're unpacking the family roles we never asked for Golden child scapegoat, forgotten middle, and why Gen X kids basically grew up in a live-in social experiment.
00:00:21.373 --> 00:00:33.481
We'll also settle a flashback Friday debate answer a sibling advice letter that's honestly heartbreaking and try to figure out who had it worse the rule follower or the rebel.
00:00:34.283 --> 00:00:37.713
We'll be rewinding to when I was the golden child.
00:00:37.713 --> 00:00:44.767
Lisa was barely holding it together, and Jurassic Park wasn't the only place someone was getting emotionally eaten alive.
00:00:45.048 --> 00:00:47.612
Well, if you've ever been told to, just let it go.
00:00:47.612 --> 00:00:55.975
Keep watching, because we're here to say nope, you are absolutely right to be mad about that thing from 1993.
00:00:55.975 --> 00:00:57.899
Let's go.
00:00:57.899 --> 00:01:19.102
Welcome to the 90s mystery.
00:01:19.102 --> 00:01:22.787
The big question, josh, is did birth order actually decide your fate in the family, or is it just what therapists want us to believe?
00:01:22.787 --> 00:01:35.263
So it's pretty simple in our family, youngest, oldest, I think- compared to you, like my mom, yeah, like one of 17 there.
00:01:35.284 --> 00:01:38.751
A little much in terms of having siblings.
00:01:38.751 --> 00:01:42.549
I barely made it with you, do you know?
00:01:42.969 --> 00:01:44.233
Okay, poor you Huh.
00:01:44.233 --> 00:01:49.084
Oh you had to suffer.
00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:52.105
The oldest paves the way.
00:01:52.105 --> 00:01:55.903
Let's just face it the oldest paves the way.
00:01:55.903 --> 00:02:05.067
Every time I had to go through the shit so that you could just sail on through.
00:02:07.180 --> 00:02:08.082
Do you mean literally?
00:02:08.082 --> 00:02:11.852
Yeah, okay, okay.
00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:24.070
They had to get all of the kinks out with me, and by the time they got to you at that stage, six years later, I was like, eh, been there, done that, it's true.
00:02:24.703 --> 00:02:25.514
It's always easier.
00:02:25.514 --> 00:02:26.120
The second one.
00:02:26.281 --> 00:02:26.981
Always easier.
00:02:26.981 --> 00:02:27.683
The second one.
00:02:28.224 --> 00:02:31.532
Second one's usually a little, you know.
00:02:36.461 --> 00:02:37.865
Yeah, is that what you were aiming for?
00:02:37.865 --> 00:02:38.888
No, no, not really.
00:02:38.948 --> 00:02:43.366
I was gonna say a little bit more brighter.
00:02:44.207 --> 00:02:45.569
Oh, you're hilarious.
00:02:45.569 --> 00:02:47.473
What did you think about being the youngest?
00:02:47.473 --> 00:02:50.585
What kind of advantages do you feel you got?
00:02:50.585 --> 00:02:51.948
You know what's?
00:02:52.609 --> 00:03:01.307
crazy like and I really mean this 100% I've never even thought about it once in my life, I'm not even kidding you.
00:03:01.307 --> 00:03:09.621
Not once in my life did I think about me, in the sense of my age, as a sibling Like.
00:03:09.621 --> 00:03:12.751
Not once, ever, until our podcast.
00:03:15.420 --> 00:03:21.072
So what you're saying, then, is that I'm projecting all of my onto you.
00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:27.027
Well, I mean, you know the shoe fits.
00:03:27.027 --> 00:03:35.061
I mean, we were so far apart I know so you know, it's like obviously, if someone was like, do you have a sibling, I'd be well, yeah, obviously I have a sister.
00:03:35.061 --> 00:03:45.889
But like you know, like jet and fallon are like so close together, right two years apart so it's like they're they're intertwined friends.
00:03:45.889 --> 00:04:00.582
Come over, they're able to kind of yeah versus like by the time I had a friend over, you were like this age right so it was kind of like well, think about it you were starting grade one and I was starting high school yeah, it's like very different.
00:04:00.902 --> 00:04:03.186
You were starting high school and I was having my first kid.
00:04:03.447 --> 00:04:04.108
Yeah, that's it.
00:04:04.108 --> 00:04:05.969
So I mean we're in a different life.
00:04:05.969 --> 00:04:06.911
Yeah.
00:04:06.950 --> 00:04:11.040
So, I feel like we've we we've connected more as adults.
00:04:12.203 --> 00:04:43.084
I almost feel like in some ways, I was an only child, not in like, not in a negative way or anything, I just mean in the sense of like, because of that spread, you know so, like it, there was almost like, uh, there was gaps, right, like when you went to pei, right and you lived in pei and you know so there was like gaps where it was like oh, okay, lisa's like doing her own, yeah, yeah, so do you feel like you were kind of maybe not forgotten, but maybe like left to your own devices more?
00:04:44.487 --> 00:04:45.249
uh, not really.
00:04:45.249 --> 00:04:51.166
I feel like there's probably a lot of parents that don't do that kind of stuff.
00:04:51.166 --> 00:04:54.473
Even in your 40s, you know, I'm sure you know.
00:04:54.514 --> 00:05:14.874
So in some ways I guess we're forever kids in their minds, right yeah, when I was like 1920 living in PEI, you and mom had moved back here already, so I was like in a different province all by myself and I like never talked to her.
00:05:14.874 --> 00:05:19.091
I think I called her at Christmas Do you know what I mean?
00:05:19.091 --> 00:05:21.519
And now, as a parent, I'm mortified.
00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:27.702
I'm like that was heartless, like at least call the woman every sunday to sell, tell her you're alive.
00:05:27.702 --> 00:05:28.846
You know what I mean, like.
00:05:30.709 --> 00:05:32.994
But I think that's normal, though I I do.
00:05:33.420 --> 00:05:34.163
I do too too.
00:05:34.423 --> 00:05:47.699
In a way, though, I think it was normal then, I don't think it's normal now yeah, like I mean, if you want to talk about that, I mean there was a bazillion gaps where I didn't talk to anyone in the family.
00:05:47.699 --> 00:05:53.250
So I mean you know there was years, yeah, but is it our generation?
00:05:53.471 --> 00:05:54.473
because I don't like.
00:05:54.473 --> 00:05:57.822
I mean now you're seeing kids living at home, still like late 20s.
00:05:57.822 --> 00:05:58.603
No, I don't think.
00:05:58.624 --> 00:06:35.812
I actually don't think it's just how we look at family us like our family in general, I mean, I think I think we are, you know we'll do anything for each other, but at the same time, at there there is a there's like this disconnect where we're okay with that, you know, and I think, um, I think a lot of people are not okay with that, and we can go a month, three months, six months without talking to someone.
00:06:35.812 --> 00:06:40.107
Now I think that that's much, much harder.
00:06:40.107 --> 00:06:53.232
Um, over the years, you know, like now it's like, you know, I want to know what's going on or this, and that I think that just has to do with you know going from your footing.
00:06:53.451 --> 00:07:07.600
Yeah, and going from you know like who you are, and focusing on you and being so hyper focused on what you're doing to now kind of say like, oh shit, you know, I might only have 10 more Christmases left with them.
00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:10.608
Right, it's not a lot of time, right?
00:07:11.009 --> 00:07:11.249
Okay.
00:07:11.249 --> 00:07:24.194
So going back to like the oldest, youngest, middle child, all of that stuff, Do you find a difference raising your kids?
00:07:24.194 --> 00:07:28.120
Find a difference raising your kids.
00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:35.860
Are you acutely aware of some of the messages that you are giving in terms of that kind of thing Like family roles, youngest, oldest, that kind of stuff?
00:07:35.860 --> 00:07:37.685
Is it not even a second thought?
00:07:37.685 --> 00:07:38.408
And you don't even?
00:07:38.408 --> 00:07:41.208
I don't even think about it, don't even think about it.
00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:43.470
Maybe that's just cause I'm a guy, but you know you're still a father.
00:07:43.470 --> 00:07:43.872
What does that mean?
00:07:43.872 --> 00:07:44.314
I don't know about it.
00:07:44.334 --> 00:07:45.036
maybe that's just because I'm a guy.
00:07:45.036 --> 00:07:46.201
But you know, father, what does that mean?
00:07:46.422 --> 00:07:46.802
I don't know.
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You know it's, it's.
00:07:48.045 --> 00:07:58.088
It's just not something that's like for me lying, you know, I know that's a whole different topic there, but for me it's like if you lie.
00:07:59.815 --> 00:08:09.137
So let us know, were you the golden child, the scapegoat, the forgotten one, and did it ever change?
00:08:09.137 --> 00:08:11.843
We want to hear from you Now.
00:08:11.843 --> 00:08:17.439
Let's play everyone's favorite game, this or that.
00:08:17.980 --> 00:08:18.581
Are you ready?
00:08:18.581 --> 00:08:25.206
Yeah, absolutely Okay, you go, you start All right, rule follower sibling or versus rule breaker sibling.
00:08:25.454 --> 00:08:27.482
Oh, I was definitely the rule follower.
00:08:27.482 --> 00:08:28.745
Of course I was.
00:08:28.745 --> 00:08:30.439
I was too scared to break the rules.
00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:35.741
Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh well, what about you?
00:08:35.741 --> 00:08:37.301
Rule follower or rule breaker?
00:08:37.434 --> 00:08:39.984
Well, I mean, I'm pretty sure I was pretty much the rule breaker.
00:08:40.075 --> 00:08:41.118
Yeah, I think so too.
00:08:42.903 --> 00:08:43.605
I'm glad you agree.
00:08:44.115 --> 00:08:45.201
Here shows my envy.
00:08:45.201 --> 00:08:47.321
I was so envious of you.
00:08:47.321 --> 00:08:51.562
Okay, shotgun seat or control of the remote.
00:08:52.664 --> 00:08:53.386
Shotgun seat.
00:08:53.527 --> 00:08:54.976
Yeah, I always wanted.
00:08:54.976 --> 00:08:59.548
Well, we didn't have, like like I grew up, we didn't really have a car.
00:08:59.548 --> 00:09:04.029
Um, so for me it was more like control of the remote.
00:09:04.070 --> 00:09:17.345
Man, just give me the remote all right uh oldest child pressure versus youngest child chaos well, clearly I'm gonna have the older child yeah, I'm gonna have the opposite.
00:09:19.336 --> 00:09:22.022
Doing the chore or pretending not to hear?
00:09:22.022 --> 00:09:23.866
I know your answer.
00:09:24.067 --> 00:09:27.979
I know your answer, pretending not to hear.
00:09:27.999 --> 00:09:32.489
Yeah, because, and because of that, I was always the one that did the chores.
00:09:32.489 --> 00:09:34.657
Jeez man.
00:09:35.238 --> 00:09:36.880
Jeez, oh my gosh.
00:09:36.880 --> 00:09:41.129
Okay, being mom's favorite versus being dad's favorite.
00:09:41.654 --> 00:09:48.197
I know I wasn't mom's favorite growing up, but I don't know if I could say I was dad's favorite either.
00:09:48.197 --> 00:09:49.943
I don't think dad had favorites.
00:09:49.943 --> 00:09:51.890
So are you?
00:09:51.890 --> 00:09:52.855
Are you saying that I'm?
00:09:52.855 --> 00:09:53.937
Going to say neither.
00:09:53.937 --> 00:09:56.143
I don't think I was anybody's favorite.
00:09:56.283 --> 00:10:04.485
You're talking about when I was born, Because obviously before those seven years you were just you.
00:10:05.575 --> 00:10:06.759
Okay, you keep saying this.
00:10:06.759 --> 00:10:07.802
It's six years.
00:10:07.903 --> 00:10:08.745
Six years sorry.
00:10:10.755 --> 00:10:14.861
I'm going to stick to my answer and say neither.
00:10:14.861 --> 00:10:16.524
What about you?
00:10:17.206 --> 00:10:19.629
I don't know, it's hard, it's hard to say.
00:10:19.629 --> 00:10:24.326
I feel like I had both moments of both.
00:10:24.326 --> 00:10:29.226
I feel like it was very balanced for me in my eyes, I guess.
00:10:29.226 --> 00:10:37.979
I don't feel like there was at least to me, I don't feel like there was any special treatment between the two of them to me.
00:10:37.999 --> 00:10:40.062
I don't feel like there was any special treatment between the two of them.
00:10:40.062 --> 00:10:41.325
Now, who do you think you're?
00:10:41.325 --> 00:10:43.969
You are mom's favorite or dad's favorite?
00:10:51.595 --> 00:10:52.456
Oh, I don't know, that's tough.
00:10:52.456 --> 00:10:58.779
That's tough Cause I feel like I have two completely different relationships between the two of them now, you know, and they're both great relationships, but it's hard to say.
00:11:00.495 --> 00:11:00.975
I think.
00:11:00.975 --> 00:11:05.427
I do think that I agree with you.
00:11:05.427 --> 00:11:08.844
I do think we have very different relationships.
00:11:08.844 --> 00:11:13.541
Yeah, Now I got a question for you before we move on to the next.
00:11:13.541 --> 00:11:18.744
This or that, Do you have favorites?
00:11:19.365 --> 00:11:22.082
No, I don't have favorites with my kids.
00:11:22.082 --> 00:11:25.485
I don't have favorites with my parents.
00:11:25.485 --> 00:11:28.063
I don't have favorites with anything.
00:11:28.975 --> 00:11:50.018
So you know why I think I'm not getting upset about this topic of favorites is because now, as a parent I read, I realize that favorites it's not about favorites, it's about who you're connecting with more at a certain time in life and it has nothing.
00:11:50.018 --> 00:11:53.024
It's nothing bad to do with any other person.
00:11:53.426 --> 00:11:54.027
Yeah, for sure.
00:11:54.288 --> 00:11:54.956
Do you know what I mean?
00:11:55.115 --> 00:11:59.864
Yeah, yeah, you can be connected more at one point in life and then less than the other.
00:11:59.945 --> 00:12:00.465
Exactly.
00:12:00.725 --> 00:12:02.990
Getting blamed versus always blaming.
00:12:04.336 --> 00:12:07.505
I'm going to say I always felt like I was getting blamed.
00:12:10.054 --> 00:12:12.799
Okay, what about you?
00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:21.017
I mean me too, but I think every child is gonna say that I know I would love to see so unfair.
00:12:21.017 --> 00:12:24.283
I would love to see a child being like oh yeah, I always blame.
00:12:24.303 --> 00:12:34.023
Yeah, okay, you know yeah oh my gosh um so praise with pressure or freedom, with neglect.
00:12:34.442 --> 00:12:35.504
I don't even understand that.
00:12:35.605 --> 00:12:42.456
Okay, so you got praised a lot, but it came with pressure Versus.
00:12:42.456 --> 00:12:45.245
You had a lot of freedom, but you felt neglected.
00:12:45.514 --> 00:12:50.067
I feel like my kids have so much freedom compared to us.
00:12:50.067 --> 00:13:08.205
I mean so much freedom, I mean the amount of freedom is like, oh my God, if they were living in our lives and our lives were not horrible, but if they were living in our position they would not survive.
00:13:08.346 --> 00:13:09.107
They would not survive.
00:13:09.107 --> 00:13:23.846
Okay, so let's just say freedom with neglect by default, because not that we weren't praised, but if it's praised with pressure, then we didn't have that.
00:13:23.846 --> 00:13:24.768
I don't know.
00:13:24.948 --> 00:13:25.909
We didn't have that I don't know.
00:13:25.909 --> 00:13:28.163
My memory's so wonky with this stuff.
00:13:28.163 --> 00:13:34.006
Okay, I'm telling mom versus snitches, get stitches.
00:13:35.056 --> 00:13:42.057
Well, I know what you're going to say about me, jeez, oh, oh my gosh.
00:13:42.057 --> 00:13:42.398
No, I think.
00:13:42.398 --> 00:13:44.282
Listen honestly, josh.
00:13:44.282 --> 00:13:52.179
I think, despite the one incident of 94, that we keep going back to year after year after year oh my, okay to rehash.
00:13:52.179 --> 00:14:00.049
I think we were pretty like snitches get stitches being the family therapist versus being the family ghoster.
00:14:00.370 --> 00:14:01.091
Family ghoster.
00:14:01.274 --> 00:14:08.283
Yeah, I'm the family therapist Heads down without even thinking.
00:14:09.916 --> 00:14:11.322
Overachiever or underdog.
00:14:12.756 --> 00:14:14.464
I'm going to say underdog what?
00:14:14.464 --> 00:14:17.144
I was never an overachiever.
00:14:17.144 --> 00:14:19.302
What are you talking about?
00:14:20.135 --> 00:14:23.326
You were an underdog.
00:14:24.216 --> 00:14:26.264
Well yeah, I was never an overachiever.
00:14:26.735 --> 00:14:28.763
I always looked at you like an overachiever.
00:14:30.118 --> 00:14:30.740
Are you serious?
00:14:30.740 --> 00:14:35.923
In what way did I overachieve as a single mother at 20?
00:14:35.923 --> 00:14:38.528
In what way?
00:14:38.528 --> 00:14:39.679
Please enlighten me.
00:14:40.195 --> 00:14:42.283
Well, shit, that was way better than my situation.
00:14:42.283 --> 00:14:49.522
Oh my goodness, At least you brought life into the world.
00:14:51.495 --> 00:14:54.225
Fuck it, christ, you're crazy.
00:14:54.225 --> 00:14:55.399
Oh my.
00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:59.057
God, josh, I swear, all right.
00:14:59.057 --> 00:15:05.203
This next one comes from a listener who's fighting the golden child curse.
00:15:05.706 --> 00:15:06.027
Oh boy.
00:15:06.615 --> 00:15:07.600
Decades later.
00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:10.902
All right, let me read this one.
00:15:10.902 --> 00:15:16.267
Dear siblings, my sister was always the golden child.
00:15:16.267 --> 00:15:18.583
Even when I succeeded, it wasn't enough.
00:15:18.583 --> 00:15:27.767
Now we're in our 40s and our parents still act like I'm the screw up, even though I'm the one helping them pay bills and manage everything.
00:15:27.767 --> 00:15:31.342
Should I confront them or let it go and keep the peace?
00:15:31.342 --> 00:15:34.878
Yeesh yeesh.
00:15:34.918 --> 00:15:57.403
I think the problem with this is that the writer is looking at success from a financial standpoint, because they're saying you know, I'm helping the parents with the bills and to manage everything, and you know the parents might not be looking at success in the same way.
00:15:57.403 --> 00:16:06.628
So I think, at least in my eyes I think it's about what they see and how they see it.
00:16:06.628 --> 00:16:13.486
So I think a conversation is definitely needed to figure out why do you say these things to me?
00:16:13.486 --> 00:16:14.980
Or why do you act this way?
00:16:14.980 --> 00:16:28.081
Because I'm doing X, y, z, and then from that they should at least be like oh well, you know, I never thought about xyz like that's not why you know, so and so I don't know.
00:16:28.962 --> 00:16:30.144
You know, that's how I look at it.
00:16:30.144 --> 00:16:39.688
You know, like success, you know some people are like you know, have no money but they have like the best work-life balance ever and they're like I'm successful, you know.
00:16:39.688 --> 00:16:44.988
And then you have others who are like you're not successful unless you have a million bucks in your bank account.
00:16:44.988 --> 00:16:46.533
Right.
00:16:47.636 --> 00:16:48.178
You're right.
00:16:48.178 --> 00:16:52.421
It depends on what success means.
00:16:52.421 --> 00:17:09.163
However, it shouldn't it shouldn't I'm not, I'm not saying it doesn't, but it shouldn't be about how or what other people think success should be.
00:17:09.163 --> 00:17:24.318
It should be what you think success is, and what I'm reading from this is that this writer is very much focusing on what they think success is.
00:17:24.971 --> 00:17:26.634
I think we're saying the same thing technically.
00:17:26.634 --> 00:17:39.702
Oh okay, you know that's how I feel, right Like you're so hyper focused on what they're doing, so it's making you feel like shit but also like or let it go and keep the peace.
00:17:40.790 --> 00:17:48.661
Keep the peace like if you confront them and say why, what is it about my success?
00:17:48.661 --> 00:17:49.682
That's not enough.
00:17:49.682 --> 00:17:57.152
For example, why would that not be a peaceful conversation?
00:17:57.152 --> 00:17:59.117
How, like, I'm wondering.
00:17:59.117 --> 00:18:01.304
Well, it depends yeah, that's.
00:18:01.384 --> 00:18:04.791
It depends on on the situation, I guess with them right.
00:18:04.791 --> 00:18:14.506
Well, you know, chances are, um, uh know, there's probably some, I don't know, some miscommunication issues over there.
00:18:15.711 --> 00:18:28.116
Yeah, clearly I'm going to get a little personal, so it's a different scenario, but I think the end is what what counts.
00:18:28.116 --> 00:18:43.871
So my oldest child went through quite a few different like really big life experiences, okay, and I, as a mother, was so focused on what did I miss, what the fuck did I get wrong?
00:18:43.871 --> 00:18:59.011
That you're, I was so focused on looking at myself and what I missed and how I felt, and what I understood and didn't understand, and what I wanted and what I didn't want, that I failed to see the human being in front of me.
00:18:59.011 --> 00:19:13.114
Okay, once I realized that, even though this was my child, essentially a part of you, right, it isn't you?
00:19:14.037 --> 00:19:14.880
Right, you don't own them.
00:19:15.230 --> 00:19:16.576
You do not own them.
00:19:16.576 --> 00:19:25.064
You obviously it's like unheard of to not have hopes and dreams for your child.
00:19:25.064 --> 00:19:37.644
Of course you are, but there has to be some sort of a division between what you would love and then the reality of it.
00:19:37.644 --> 00:20:05.213
Right, yeah, at the end of the day, I'm sure mom and dad had wonderful dreams about what we could achieve, or what they would like us to have been, or what they would like us to have been right, but I know now that both of them they look at us like successful adults.
00:20:05.233 --> 00:20:06.134
They're proud of us, of our achievements.
00:20:06.134 --> 00:20:22.204
Right, you need to kind of take a step back and realize the damage that you're doing by holding on to what you want yeah instead of just allowing what's there to flourish.
00:20:22.204 --> 00:20:24.792
Does that make sense?
00:20:25.513 --> 00:20:34.431
we don't own them and um, you know we we like to pretend we do and uh, you know, but they're their own people.
00:20:34.431 --> 00:20:35.733
We brought them into the world.
00:20:35.733 --> 00:20:45.759
That's the biggest gift yeah but other than that, you know like we have to let them be yeah, like, what is the goal of parenting to?
00:20:45.921 --> 00:21:00.144
to obviously teach them things, instill good values and make them good human beings so that when they are out there in the world they can succeed and flourish and grow.
00:21:00.144 --> 00:21:04.856
Yeah, and all that stuff for them, not for us.
00:21:04.876 --> 00:21:06.440
Well, yeah, of course.
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Right.
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Mm-hmm.
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So yeah, I say yes, confront them.
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